Curse

theclam · Jan 17, 2006, 07:22 PM // 19:22

From what I gather, the PvP weapons are designed to be the best possible weapons in the game. They all have 9 req., max damage, and a maximum modifier (+15% >50 for example). You can fairly easily get the best upgrades for them (+20% enchants, +5 armor, etc.). They're designed so that you don't have to PvE for dozens of hours in order to get an edge in PvP.

Well, this is no longer the case.

There are many PvE items that are clearly more powerful than their PvP counterparts (I'm using Monk weapons here since I'm familiar with them):
http://www.guildwiki.org/wiki/Wroth%27s_Holy_Rod
http://www.guildwiki.org/wiki/Brohn%27s_Holy_Rod
http://www.guildwiki.org/wiki/Ivor%27s_Smiting_Rod

There are also many PvE items that have modifiers that can't be found on PvP weapons and can be more powerful, depending on the build:
http://www.guildwiki.org/wiki/Gordac%27s_Holy_Rod

Many of the top PvP teams in the tourney used items like the HoD sword (+5 energy permanently, plus whatever sword weapon upgrades you can afford), which cost tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of gold.

You're not supposed to have to (or be able to) grind for dozens of hours in PvE or spend large amounts of gold to become more powerful than any possible PvP-only character could be.

Therefore, I propose that PvP weapons are rebalanced in order to be equally powerful as these PvE weapons.

Seef II · Jan 18, 2006, 04:30 AM // 04:30

I agree that pvp items should match anything pve allows (and vice versa), but at the present moment, Anet lets you do just that by allowing the bringing of equipment from pve into pvp (you can even run pve characters!).

Quote:

Originally Posted by www.guildwars.com

Characters Allowed

Players may use Role Playing or PvP-Only characters. They may use any items their characters legally can use in game.

Guilds may switch players or switch or modify characters, but must do so using their single, tournament-qualified game account between games or after a restart and must be ready to start the next game at the scheduled time.

If a guild cannot field a full team of eight players, they may choose to play with fewer than eight players, and may fill empty slots with Guild Wars computer-controlled henchmen.

TheGuildWarsPenguin · Jan 18, 2006, 04:36 AM // 04:36

I would like to see those rare modifiers and mods like:

Insightful Holy Staff of HEALING PRAYERS
Hale Fire Staff of FIRE MAGIC

Quick recovery from Deep wound
Quick recovery from poison

/signed

LifeInfusion · Jan 18, 2006, 04:41 AM // 04:41

All the more incentive for you to PvE. Don't complain if you want mods. You chose to PvP only, then that's your problem.
Noone is asking you for hundreds of hours to farm for perfect weapons, but there should be an extent to what is considered to be "overpowered".

Henge of Denravi's sword was overpowered not for PvE, but in general, so that was not a valid point.

A +1 __ attribute 20% of the time won't be overpowered in this context.

theclam · Jan 18, 2006, 07:44 AM // 07:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seef II

I agree that pvp items should match anything pve allows (and vice versa), but at the present moment, Anet lets you do just that by allowing the bringing of equipment from pve into pvp (you can even run pve characters!).

The problem is that we can't customize the weapon for the PvP character.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

All the more incentive for you to PvE. Don't complain if you want mods. You chose to PvP only, then that's your problem.
Noone is asking you for hundreds of hours to farm for perfect weapons, but there should be an extent to what is considered to be "overpowered".

Henge of Denravi's sword was overpowered not for PvE, but in general, so that was not a valid point.

A +1 __ attribute 20% of the time won't be overpowered in this context.

I don't just PvP. I probably spend 60% of my time in PvE. I don't care if something is overpowered or not. The problem is that PvP is supposed to be 100% skill based, a level playing field.

People who bring green items or HoD swords into PvP don't have a huge advantage. However, they do have a small, but significant advantage. If you take my PvP-only Monk and compare him with a Monk that spent many hours farming SF or lots of cash on a HoD sword, then assuming equal skill, the other Monk will do better than me every time.

Why would they have put all those low req., max stats, max mods, max upgrades PvP weapons in the game if they didn't want PvPers to be able to have the best weapons without stepping into PvE at all?

Deathqueen · Jan 18, 2006, 10:37 AM // 10:37

It's always been widely known that a pure PVP character was never the best for the PVP game. Playing the PVE game and bringing in that character was the advantage and a fair one and a just one for those that did spend the time building them up and getting the best for them. You notice a PVP character only gets two weapon choices and two offhand items. Whereas a PVE character gets 4 and even more if they are good enough and quick enough to change from inventory into battle.

This is the only DECENT thing left about the PVE game if you like PVP, building up and obtaining the best you can for PVP later on. Having that little bit of an edge because you put in the time for it either farming for it or farming for the money to buy it. So, no, I would be against any change where a pre-made or just a PVP character only has an advantage over someone who has put in their time in the PVE game. Plus you get that bonus +20% damage by customization which is nice also.

NatalieD · Jan 18, 2006, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathqueen

Playing the PVE game and bringing in that character was the advantage and a fair one and a just one for those that did spend the time building them up and getting the best for them.

How is it fair or just that those who don't care for one kind of playing are penalized in another, completely different kind?

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This is the only DECENT thing left about the PVE game if you like PVP, building up and obtaining the best you can for PVP later on. Having that little bit of an edge because you put in the time for it either farming for it or farming for the money to buy it.

This makes no sense! PVE should be its own reward, not a way to get a slight edge in PVP. There are plenty of games where grinding and farming for equipment are necessary to be competitive in PVP. Guild Wars was supposed to be different.

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So, no, I would be against any change where a pre-made or just a PVP character only has an advantage over someone who has put in their time in the PVE game.

No one's asking for PVP characters to have an advantage. The idea is to give the characters equal chances.

The First Attacker · Jan 18, 2006, 09:14 PM // 21:14

At the end of the day pvp is much easier to do. Slight difference in weapons for pve will reward those who put effort into the game. What will pvp want next? 15k armour? fow armour?

Siren · Jan 18, 2006, 09:15 PM // 21:15

I was under the impression that the green items released during the PvE Sorrow's Furnace update--items that dropped exclusively from those Sorrow's/Grenth's bosses, mind--were for the PvErs. Let's consider it, for a moment. A brand-spanking-new PvE area. Brand-spanking-new PvE bosses. Brand-spanking-new items dropped from those PvE bosses.

But you say PvP Insta-20s should be able to have them straight-up, because they may face PvE characters supposedly "twinked-out" with marginally "better" gear (even though the green items aren't all that better than regular golds)?

Given that you can only tell the difference between PvP and PvE chars in the arenas and such either by the armor (PvE gets FoW), pets, or certain weapons (Yakslapper, Gingerbread items, etc)...if no character had those equipped, for all you knew, you were facing fellow Insta-20s.

Do some PvErs use green items in PvP? Sometimes. I've used Villnar's Claw every now and then, with a Curses-based 20/20 Collector's Idol. But most of the time? When I'm not wearing Collector's Necromancer armor (even though I think the look shats all over the other types of "Regular" Nec armor)? To that template Paladin or whatever, I'm just another Necro that he needs to decapitate.

I guess what I'm saying here is that the differences between a PvP character and a RPvP character are pretty damn minute--and mostly cosmetic.

And actually, to touch back on what I said regarding how you can tell between PvP and RPvPs...even the weapon itself is unreliable. Weapons can be traded, stored (stored being a critical point here), bought, sold, etc. Chaos Axes, green items...any player can acquire them in any manner. So right there, if you see a green item in someone's hand in PvP...and there's nothing else to distinguish them as a PvE character...for all you can tell, they're just a PvP character who yoinked a green item from a PvEr, who may be in their guild or a character on that PvP character's account.

And for all you know, that character may not be using the green item for those marginally better stats; he or she may very well be using that item because he or she simply likes the skin better--and honestly, I don't put that type of "mmm shiny" mentality beyond the so-called "hardcore," "pure" PvPers, because everyone plays for some type of "shiny" thing.

So...yeah.

/unsigned

I really don't see the need for this suggestion, because: 1, we saw green items released in a PvE environment for a PvE game update; 2, greens aren't terribly better as it is; 3, every non-customized item in the game can be stored in the account-wide storage and can be accessed by any character on that account; and 4, there's virtually no way to tell which is a PvP and PvE character in the arenas in the first place, which kind of makes the OP's entire argument moot.

The Real Roy Keane · Jan 18, 2006, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by The First Attacker

At the end of the day pvp is much easier to do. Slight difference in weapons for pve will reward those who put effort into the game. What will pvp want next? 15k armour? fow armour?

So you're suggesting PvP players don't put as much effort into the game?If you are you've clearly never played in anything other than the ascalon arenas..and if you're not then i apologise for accusing you in the wrong.

Robster Lobster · Jan 19, 2006, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Let them be buyable, maybe 10k faction for a perfect wand or something. 10k faction will take most people a fair while to earn, and will stop people from moaning about PvP players getting the items for nothing. The difference in skills between some of the weapons (I notice wands in particuar as I play PvE and PvP ele's) can be fairly significant, +5 energy>50 or while enchanted on a wand is an upgrade that CAN make a difference in competitive PvP.

theclam · Jan 19, 2006, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

1, we saw green items released in a PvE environment for a PvE game update

Doesn't matter. If they bring it into PvP, then it's part of the PvP environment.

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2, greens aren't terribly better as it is;

They aren't omg-h4x0r uber, but they are significantly more powerful than PvP weapons. An extra 5 energy or 10% faster recharge will make a difference in a close battle.

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3, every non-customized item in the game can be stored in the account-wide storage and can be accessed by any character on that account;

PvP characters can't customize, so PvE characters have an advantage in using them.

Quote:

and 4, there's virtually no way to tell which is a PvP and PvE character in the arenas in the first place, which kind of makes the OP's entire argument moot.

I don't care if there's a way to tell for sure or not. I don't care at all whether you are a PvE or PvP character. What matters is that someone has a significant advantage over me because they paid hundreds of plat for a HoD sword or spent dozens of hours farming for a green weapon.

One of my favorite parts of GW is that everyone is on a level playing field. Characters don't get more powerful because they grind for 200 hours. They are more powerful solely because they have more skill or strategy than me.

If we take this (i.e. PvE characters should get better items than PvP characters because they "work" more) to the logical conclusion, then we'll end up with another WoW. They preface every statement about PvP with "as long as both characters are equally geared." If I come up with an excellent strategy, then I don't want to have that strategy fail, just because someone has an Uber Wand of Death and I have a PvP Wand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robster Lobster

Let them be buyable, maybe 10k faction for a perfect wand or something. 10k faction will take most people a fair while to earn, and will stop people from moaning about PvP players getting the items for nothing. The difference in skills between some of the weapons (I notice wands in particuar as I play PvE and PvP ele's) can be fairly significant, +5 energy>50 or while enchanted on a wand is an upgrade that CAN make a difference in competitive PvP.

I'd be ok with this. 10k is a little high, though (especially considering that Warrior Runes of Superior Absorbtion only take 2k, even though they cost 100 plat in PvE; that would make a green weapon would be the equivalent of 500 plat

).

Siren · Jan 19, 2006, 04:46 AM // 04:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by theclam

Doesn't matter. If they bring it into PvP, then it's part of the PvP environment.

It does matter, though, because the green item appearances in PvP are directly due to the players themselves. Sure, because PvE and PvP are linked, wherein both players can interact with each other, you're going to see overlap, but because there's overlap, I think that's how it ultimately balances out, not to mention the greens being rare in general, so that most RPvPers won't be using the "big name" greens.

So that's why I think your argument here is a bit silly:

The greens were designed for the PvE environment, released in the PvE environment, but through player-to-player interactions, have found their way into the PvP environment. They aren't part of the PvP environment to begin with, though, and if it was clear greens were PvE-exclusive (as in, absolutely no way at all for PvP characters to acquire them, whether through prohibitive coding or whatever, including through storage), then I think you'd have a stronger case here. But as it stands...if a PvE character nabs a green item, a PvP character can very easily acquire it, which indicates to me that green items are already available to PvP characters.

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They aren't omg-h4x0r uber, but they are significantly more powerful than PvP weapons. An extra 5 energy or 10% faster recharge will make a difference in a close battle.

The 10% mod isn't as good as you think. It doesn't improve your recharge by 10%. The 10% affects your chances of getting an improved recharge. And I don't think it even gives you a 1-in-10 chance, either...as in you use a skill 10 times, and 1 time out of that 10, you'll get the faster recharge. I think it more operates on a "Each time you use a skill, there is a 10% chance you will get a faster recharge," which isn't dependable at all, because it's mathematically possible to rarely get that enhanced recharge. Speaking from personal experience...the 10% thing just isn't worth it.

And an extra 5 energy? That just means an extra 5 energy for someone to e-deny. Sure, you could always swap out like the off-hand focus trick when you're empty, but then you'd have a different weapon equipped to begin with, which kind of defeats the purpose of wanting the green items for your PvP character, doesn't it? You'll ultimately be using your traditional PvP gear to pre-emptively counter e-denial and so forth, because why go into battle with the energy to spare?

So far I'm just not seeing a valid reasoning, that's all. I think you're kind of trumping them up more than they really deserve, because I honestly don't think greens are "significantly more powerful" than PvP weapons.

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PvP characters can't customize, so PvE characters have an advantage in using them.

PvP can customize, though...their weapons, for example. Sure, maybe you're referring to lack of weaponsmiths...so why not add weaponsmiths to the PvP arenas instead? Instead of demanding that PvP characters be granted PvP-binded green items...request a "special" PvP weaponsmith.

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I don't care if there's a way to tell for sure or not. I don't care at all whether you are a PvE or PvP character. What matters is that someone has a significant advantage over me because they paid hundreds of plat for a HoD sword or spent dozens of hours farming for a green weapon.

I snipped the other two paragraphs here, because for one, I really don't care all that much about them, and two, I more or less agree with what you're saying in them. However, what I don't agree with is some of the things you said above.

I think it's important to note that you do care if a character is PvP or PvE. I mean...let's be honest here. The crux of your argument rests upon the idea that a handful of "better" PvE items are "infiltrating" PvP. But how can your argument exist if PvErs weren't entering in PvP?

You obviously believe there's some...glass ceiling, as it were, separating PvP items and PvE items.

But that glass ceiling only exists if you can without a doubt discern PvP characters from RPvPers. If you can't tell which is PvP and which is PvE...then there's really no issue, because if it's a PvP character wielding a Graygore Shortbow or whatever, then obviously that line of separation--that glass ceiling--you believe to be there...isn't really there.

And that would then make your entire point moot.

So...it's like...since PvP characters can already get their hands on green items, I think adding a weaponsmith in the arenas would help. There you can customize the green item for your PvP character, get the +20% damage, just like PvErs.

Hell, go all out with that weaponsmith idea and utilize the suggestions that have been floating around regarding PvP NPCs that can alter your character's secondary prof, runes, armor, weapons, etc.

To me, that seems like a much better idea, because it solves other problems at the same time without angering the PvEr playerbase.

theclam · Jan 19, 2006, 01:30 PM // 13:30

By significantly more powerful, I meant that the difference between, say, Wroth's Holy Rod and a PvP Holy Rod is enough to determine a close battle, which it is. I don't think that the green weapons are overpowered, or that they matter most of the time. But if they matter 3% of the time, then it is an issue.

Quote:

I think it's important to note that you do care if a character is PvP or PvE. I mean...let's be honest here. The crux of your argument rests upon the idea that a handful of "better" PvE items are "infiltrating" PvP. But how can your argument exist if PvErs weren't entering in PvP?

You obviously believe there's some...glass ceiling, as it were, separating PvP items and PvE items.

But that glass ceiling only exists if you can without a doubt discern PvP characters from RPvPers. If you can't tell which is PvP and which is PvE...then there's really no issue, because if it's a PvP character wielding a Graygore Shortbow or whatever, then obviously that line of separation--that glass ceiling--you believe to be there...isn't really there.

I can't tell the difference between PvP and PvE characters, unless there's something obvious like FoW armor. I can't tell the difference between PvP weapons and PvE weapons, unless the skin/model is different. But what I can tell is that a PvE player was able to cast slightly faster than me, or that their energy supply lasted slightly longer. I don't care whether someone is a PvP character or a PvE character. I don't care whether someone is using a PvP weapon or a PvE weapon. I care that they have a weapon with better stats than my character can have access to.

If PvP players could customize PvE weapons, I don't think I, or most people, would use it. The average life expectancy of my PvP characters is about 2 hours. Why would I have a PvP player customize a PvE weapon worth 10 plat when I would just delete that character in another hour or two? Why not just have a PvE player customize it and then use him in PvP?

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To me, that seems like a much better idea, because it solves other problems at the same time without angering the PvEr playerbase.

I don't understand how this is a bad idea. Why would the PvE playerbase be angry that PvPers can use the best weapons? PvP characters can't enter into PvE at all, so the PvE players don't lose any prestige or uniqueness or anything. They can keep their unique skins and models and show them off in ToA all they want.

If anyone should be angry about this, it should be the PvP playerbase. If things are left the way they are, then ArenaNet is saying that PvE equipment can be better than PvP equipment. They are saying that you should have an advantage from grinding and farming. If Wroth's Holy Rod can be better than any PvP Holy Rod or Collector Holy Rod, then why not just give FoW armor an overall +5 armor boost?

Many (if not most) of the characters in the tournament were PvE characters (I think this is obvious; the very best teams in the game wouldn't use Icy Dragon Swords in PvP if they didn't have them customized). Another thread in these forums suggests that it is because of the Lieutenant's Helm at Henge of Denravi (for the reduced Hex duration). If the best PvP players are using PvE characters for specific (not aesthetic) reasons, then that suggests that PvP characters are gimped in some fashion.

Siren · Jan 19, 2006, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by theclam

By significantly more powerful, I meant that the difference between, say, Wroth's Holy Rod and a PvP Holy Rod is enough to determine a close battle, which it is. I don't think that the green weapons are overpowered, or that they matter most of the time. But if they matter 3% of the time, then it is an issue.

In all honesty, how much is 3% going to matter, though? How is it an issue? Even with the 40/20 of Villnar's Claw and the Collector's Idol (same idea as the Holy Rod), I would get a faster cast every once in a while, but even with the occasional faster cast, it really didn't affect the match much. It didn't tip the scales, it didn't turn the tide of battle. It just meant I got a faster cast. I certainly didn't have an advantage because of an occasional faster cast. This is coming from someone who's been using a green item in PvP. They really do not perform all that much better, if at all. Believe me when I say it: you're putting the greens on a pedestal that they really just don't deserve.

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But what I can tell is that a PvE player was able to cast slightly faster than me, or that their energy supply lasted slightly longer.

But again, how do you know it's a PvE player? How can you tell? Unless they're decked out in FoW armor, or they're part-Ranger, commanding an Elder Spider from UW...saying they're PvE is a pretty big assumption on your part.

Do you get my point? Just because someone is using a Chaos Axe or Wroth's Holy Rod in PvP doesn't mean they're a PvE character. They very well could be PvP Insta-20s that acquired those items through one of the many avenues of PvP/PvE interaction. And if they are, then truly, there is no advantage.

Regarding customizing...what PvEr in their right mind would customize a green item? I don't think your reasoning there is all that valid. PvP characters' shelf life is 2 hours, you say? Why bother making a PvP character at all then?

You're obviously going to be incredibly limited, having to re-roll the character each and every time you want to change your attribute focus, for example, to re-assign runes, etc...how is that worth your time for a 2-hour lifespan? That's basically devoting 10 minutes of your life each time you create a new character, only to play that character for a total of 2 hours, then delete the character and make a new one. That seems to me to be indicative of two things:

1) PvP characters are gimped far, far, far worse than just the green items. They have just about zero versatility. If you want to talk about advantages like that...until PvP characters have a remotely reasonable level of versatility...RPvPers will have the advantage from the start, even before any items are factored in. If you're serious about PvPing, it's actually more efficient to use a PvE character. There's really no contest.

2) "Upping" the stats of PvP-binded weaponry is missing the bigger picture here, wherein the necessary changes to the PvP environment (armor, runes, weaponry) should pertain more to increasing the versatility and shelf-life of PvP Insta-20s.

Increasing options for weaponry is only a very small part of that. There are much larger problems that need to be addressed, and there are solutions to those problems being suggested that would actually address the issues with the weaponry.

theclam · Jan 19, 2006, 06:17 PM // 18:17

In a very close match 3% will turn the tide. Plus, 3% is just a number I picked randomly. When does it become an issue for you? 4%? 5%? 10%? 20%? Should PvE characters be able to get weapons that are better than PvP weapons, as long as they are less than X% better? Also, what if a match is an entire team of PvE characters with green weapons vs a team of PvP characters? Then the advantage becomes much more significant.

As for the concept of PvP characters, the 2 hour lifespan is a strength, at least for me. I don't have to spend 100 hours getting a character to Droknar's, getting him several sets of perfect weapons, perfect runes (including a Sup. Vigor for each character and a Sup. Absorbtion for each Warrior), several sets of armor, each with different runes, spending another hundred hours getting the skills I want, and doing all the secondary class changing quests. Even then, I'd be limited, since I'd only be able to use 4 out of the 6 primary classes. Instead, all I have to do is spend 5 minutes making a PvP character and spending a few thousand faction when I want to obtain something new. Is the system clumsy? A little. Saved templates would be nice. I'd like to have equipment managers in the PvP areas if I want to change something.

The low shelf-life of my PvP characters is because of my gameplay style. Some people may spend 10 hours per PvP character. I like to try new things fairly often. My PvP characters would be gimped if I wasn't able to delete them every 2 hours without something (e.g. an expensive weapon).

If I spend 5 minutes getting a character that's perfect in almost every respect, then why should I have to spend 50 hours to get him a perfect weapon? A weapon that I can't even customize (a major concern for Warriors and Rangers - I don't believe that they would use a non-customized weapon in PvP).

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Do you get my point? Just because someone is using a Chaos Axe or Wroth's Holy Rod in PvP doesn't mean they're a PvE character. They very well could be PvP Insta-20s that acquired those items through one of the many avenues of PvP/PvE interaction. And if they are, then truly, there is no advantage.

Let me rephrase:
"But what I can tell is that a player was able to cast slightly faster than me, or that their energy supply lasted slightly longer." Do I care that someone is using a Chaos Axe in PvP? No, because the difference between a Chaos Axe and a PvP Axe is that Chaos Axes look cooler. Do I care that someone is using Wroth's Holy Rod in PvP? Yes, because they can get more powerful than my PvP character could, without spending 50 hours on a PvE character per weapon that I want (and I'd want 7 or 8 weapons, none of which I'd want to customize, because of the low shelf-life of my PvP characters). My PvE Monk has a 10%/10% global recharge wand. He's got a permanent +5 energy wand. I know how powerful the modifiers are (the two weapons both suck for PvP, but that's not because of those mods). A fast recharge Offering of Blood is very nice. A fast cast Heal Party is very nice. An extra 5 energy has saved my party in FoW/UW half a dozen times (and don't say that it makes you more susceptible to energy denial; that's what weapon switches are for). Do I wish I (and EVERYONE else) could have those mods in PvP? Yes.

Siren · Jan 19, 2006, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by theclam

In a very close match 3% will turn the tide. Plus, 3% is just a number I picked randomly. When does it become an issue for you? 4%? 5%? 10%? 20%? Should PvE characters be able to get weapons that are better than PvP weapons, as long as they are less than X% better? Also, what if a match is an entire team of PvE characters with green weapons vs a team of PvP characters? Then the advantage becomes much more significant.

It never becomes an issue for me, because I've played the 20/20 and 40/20 combinations, and have never won a match because of that. I win matches because I know how to play, so when I lose, it's because I've been outplayed, or I went up against a team where our respective skills stalemated each other (that was pretty damn cool, too). I speak from personal experience using the 20/20 and 40/20 combinations. They don't win matches, and they sure as hell don't give me an advantage.

"Instant" cast for Feast of Corruption? If I hadn't set it up first, it means absolutely nothing to cast FoC faster, because as far as that spike is concerned...if you don't set-up an AoE hex, and throw a few cover hexes around before it...don't even bother with FoC in the first place. If the player doesn't know to prep for the FoC spike, neither faster casting nor faster recharge is going to make a difference at all. That FoC spike will still be gimped as hell. This is speaking from personal experience.

A faster cast, or faster recharge, on my own FoC spiking is not an advantage.

If anything, it's detrimental to the overall team build (and honestly, detrimental to my own character if there's a particular casting rhythm I've grown accustomed to). I recall a time recently in Tombs with a FoC Spike team. They requested that I equip different items, but not because there was some "advantage" in using 20/20 equipment. They requested that I equip different items because it may (not would, not will...it may) disrupt the timing of the spike.

Sure, that's one example, but let's look at Wroth's Holy Rod. Prot-based, right? How many Prot spells are really going to benefit from a faster cast or faster recharge?

In terms of faster cast...the longest cast time in Prot is Rebirth, which clocks in at 6 seconds. Everything else is 2 seconds or less. Some run in the range of 3/4 of a second. In PvP, what Monk would be using Rebirth? It's just not worth the secondary effects.

So then you're left with 2 second cast times and less. Let's not forget that some of those 2 second cast times are maintained enchants like Protective Bond...and we all know what's been done to P.Bond.

For the most part, most Prot spells take one second to cast, on average. They're almost an instant cast to begin with. An Interrupt Mesmer has to really have their build down to a science to be able to interrupt the usual Prot spells (like RoF, Guardian, etc). Why's that, you think? Because Prot spells are pro-active, which means the Monk has to be able to cast them quickly, hence the exceedingly low cast times.

In terms of recharges, there are about five spells with recharges over 20 seconds. The two longest recharges belong to Amity and Mark of Protection, both of which are Elite skills. I don't think any Monk in their right mind would take Amity over Mark of Protection, or Shield of Regeneration, or Shield of Deflection, or even Restore Condition.

Shielding Hands (non-Elite) has a recharge of 25 seconds, a duration of 10, and a max damage reduction of...around 16 or 17. Even with a faster recharge, the spell is clearly inferior. You could use a 20% enchant mod, with the faster recharge bonus, and yet you'd still only be mitigating 17 damage out of a spike that could potentially inflict upwards of 100 damage...say from Evis.

What I'm trying to get at here is that...the 20/20 green items like Wroth's Holy Rod aren't as useful as you think, because when everything is said and done, most skills won't benefit all that much from them, if they benefit at all. It either comes down to the player knowing what skills to use and when, or the fact that most Monk skills (both Healing and Prot) have some of the fastest cast times in the game to start with, which means any competent Monk is more than capable of functioning without Wroth's Holy Rod. The green item there is nothing more than a decoration, rather than something that has a profound impact on combat.

Regarding your PvE team vs PvP team...when have we seen an entire PvE team with all green items go up against a PvP team? Closest I've seen lately in iQ vs Te. iQ had some Gingerbread items, FoW armor on one War, etc. But oddly enough, I didn't see any green items. Not to mention it didn't seem like iQ was using all PvE characters. Perhaps Ensign can come in and clarify for us? He is in iQ, right?

I've got an example. You say a team of PvE characters equipped with green items will have an advantage over a "traditional" PvP team. Let's consider a PvE FoC Spike build, all equipped with that 40/20. If they went up against an identical build from a PvP template and that identical build was using PvP items...who would really have an advantage there you think? I highly doubt it'd be the PvE Foc Spikers. The spike team needs a good synch, correct?

How well can they synch when their items are giving some of them faster cast times on Desecrate Enchants (which I personally feel is a must for the FoC spike build), faster recharges on Shadow of Fear, faster casts for Suffering, and others get faster recharges on FoC? That spike build is ruined when (note when, not if) that happens.

Quote:

As for the concept of PvP characters, the 2 hour lifespan is a strength, at least for me. I don't have to spend 100 hours getting a character to Droknar's, getting him several sets of perfect weapons, perfect runes (including a Sup. Vigor for each character and a Sup. Absorbtion for each Warrior), several sets of armor, each with different runes, spending another hundred hours getting the skills I want, and doing all the secondary class changing quests. Even then, I'd be limited, since I'd only be able to use 4 out of the 6 primary classes. Instead, all I have to do is spend 5 minutes making a PvP character and spending a few thousand faction when I want to obtain something new. Is the system clumsy? A little. Saved templates would be nice. I'd like to have equipment managers in the PvP areas if I want to change something.

The low shelf-life of my PvP characters is because of my gameplay style. Some people may spend 10 hours per PvP character. I like to try new things fairly often. My PvP characters would be gimped if I wasn't able to delete them every 2 hours without something (e.g. an expensive weapon).

If I spend 5 minutes getting a character that's perfect in almost every respect, then why should I have to spend 50 hours to get him a perfect weapon? A weapon that I can't even customize (a major concern for Warriors and Rangers - I don't believe that they would use a non-customized weapon in PvP).

I think you actually proved my point that PvE is actually a better idea for PvPing.

You like to try new things very often, right? Not to sound glib, because that's not my intent here, just trying to prove a point, but I'd bet you that I could swap my PvE Curses/Dom N/Me to an Death/Axe N/W build just as fast (if not faster) than you could re-roll your PvP character.

I'd bet I could get the skills I needed faster than you could. Presumably if you're trying out a build you don't have the skills for, you'd have to unlock them. Gold in PvE isn't hard to come by. We don't have a cap on it (at least not a cap that's prohibitive), and we don't have a cap on skill points. We spend 1k (and a skill point) on skills at the end-game.

Faction, however...each skill costs around 1k Faction, right? 3k Faction for Elites. Runes run at...3k to 5k? Your Faction caps out at 10k. Sounds like a lot of time and Faction to me.

The only two runes I'd have trouble getting in PvE are Sup Vigor and Sup Absorb. There are maybe a few weapon upgrades that would take longer to acquire. But other than that...PvE is very efficient when it comes to swapping stuff around, and I'd venture it's even more efficient most times.

And I wholeheartedly agree with what I bolded in your post. But I don't agree that the PvP characters desperately need their own "types" of green items, because in order for such a request to be justified, there needs to be clear evidence that such an imbalance exists, without dealing in purely hypotheticals. I would be completely fine with an equipment manager-type of NPC in the arenas. I think it'd go a long way in improving how PvP flows.

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Let me rephrase:
"But what I can tell is that a player was able to cast slightly faster than me, or that their energy supply lasted slightly longer." Do I care that someone is using a Chaos Axe in PvP? No, because the difference between a Chaos Axe and a PvP Axe is that Chaos Axes look cooler. Do I care that someone is using Wroth's Holy Rod in PvP? Yes, because they can get more powerful than my PvP character could, without spending 50 hours on a PvE character per weapon that I want (and I'd want 7 or 8 weapons, none of which I'd want to customize, because of the low shelf-life of my PvP characters). My PvE Monk has a 10%/10% global recharge wand. He's got a permanent +5 energy wand. I know how powerful the modifiers are (the two weapons both suck for PvP, but that's not because of those mods). A fast recharge Offering of Blood is very nice. A fast cast Heal Party is very nice. An extra 5 energy has saved my party in FoW/UW half a dozen times (and don't say that it makes you more susceptible to energy denial; that's what weapon switches are for). Do I wish I (and EVERYONE else) could have those mods in PvP? Yes.

But you're using PvE as a support point for your argument regarding PvP. FoW and UW are nice areas and all, but the AI is hardly a human opponent. Do you believe you'd have that 5 energy in PvP?

It sounds like those FoW/UW experiences were made possible not because of your extra 5 energy; those FoW/UW saves were made possible because monsters don't know how to interrupt efficiently, and they don't know how to e-deny.

You're right about one thing: I'm not going to say you were more susceptible to e-denial there. After all, you could only be susceptible to e-denial if your enemies were capable of it. And how many enemies in the game are capable of actual e-denial apart some random Spirit Shackles chain-cast spam?

It's been said time and time again around here: PvE doesn't prepare someone for PvP. Largely, that's true. And I think in the context of your point here, it still holds true.

Plus, in a PvP environment...if 5 energy saves your team (keeping in mind 5 energy gives you one Reversal of Fortune)...that means you, the Monk, were one of the last ones standing, which means something in that battle went terribly, terribly wrong. I could understand a situation like that arising if everything came down to you and a Warrior squaring off against another Warrior and a Necro at the end of an initial 8v8...but that's pretty situational I think.

theclam · Jan 20, 2006, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Faster cast and recharge items will only hurt a spike build. When I'm Monking, they help me significantly. A faster recharging Prot. Spirit, Guardian, RoF, Offering of Blood, or Aegis is very helpful. When I'm facing a team with lots of interrupts, it can be very difficult to get off even a 1s cast spell. You may not find it helpful, but I do.

You're right that a single mod (like +5 energy) will save your party very rarely. It adds up. Games do come down the wire, even if it's only once every 30 games. In close games, every little bit does count.

You could probably switch your N/Me to a N/W faster than I could create a PvP character (assuming you already put in the time to get all those W skills on that character and find an axe as good as a PvP axe). However, you can only have 3 or 4 PvE characters at most. A PvP slot allows you to play any primary class that you want, as long as you have the skills unlocked. You may be able to switch that N/Me to a N/W. But I bet that I could create a PvP-only Me/N a million times faster than you could create a Me/N (assuming you have no PvE primary Mesmer). And like you said, it's much easier to get Superior Vigor and Absorbtion runes for a PvP-only character. I only have one PvE character that has enough equipment to PvP. If I didn't have that character, I would be limited to only one class while PvPing.

Again, I want to know what is wrong with my idea. Your main point seems to be that it doesn't make a big difference, not that it's a bad idea. The only downsides that have been stated are:

1. PvE players deserve those items, but PvP players do not (posted by LifeInfusion, The First Attacker), because PvE players worked to get the items. This is stupid. If PvE players spend plat or time getting these items, then allow PvP players to purchase them by spending faction.

2. It will take dev time away from Arenanet that they could use to do something else. From what I know about game development, it doesn't seem like this would take very much time at all.

Siren · Jan 20, 2006, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by theclam

Again, I want to know what is wrong with my idea. Your main point seems to be that it doesn't make a big difference, not that it's a bad idea.

My point has always been that your idea is a bad one because you're suggesting these green item qualities help enough to justify encoding them in to PvP, when their initial introduction was for PvE. Your reasoning for the suggestion is flawed, because the green items don't help as much as you say they would/do.

And if you'd like more than just that...I'll incorporate something you just said:

Quote:

When I'm facing a team with lots of interrupts, it can be very difficult to get off even a 1s cast spell.

If you keep getting interrupted, is your team doing absolutely nothing to...interrupt the interrupters, essentially? I mean, if you can't even get a 1-second cast off...that means Mesmers and Rangers are babysitting you (not even that they're good Mesmers and Rangers, either), which means the rest of your team is doing nothing at all to get them off your back.

The fact that you keep getting interrupted does not set precedent for giving you an item that will possibly speed up your cast times 10% of the time.

In my eyes, the fact that you keep getting interrupted means that your team needs to seriously consider working on Interrupter Mitigation. And if you don't have a Mesmer specced into Caster Lockdown (Mantra of Recovery+Diversion, with Backfire, Arcane Conundrum, Guilt...pretty good build for something like that)...let's consider the other skills in your secondary:

You're a primary Monk? Spell Breaker comes to mind.

Secondary Mesmer? Mantra of Resolve, I believe it is. Or Mantra of Concentration.

Secondary Ele? Glyph of Concentration. Or Obsidian Flesh. Or even Glyph of Renewal for recharges.

Since you asked, your idea to give PvP characters the 20/20 and 40/20 bonuses is a bad one because it doesn't even take into consideration secondary professions, apparently misses the existence of what could be quite possibly one of the strongest Monk Elites in the game (just play outside of Droks, Camp Rankor and see how lovely Spell Breaker can be), and just generally?

I saw zero consideration given to other options. It seems like "Oh, crap, I'm getting interrupted a lot! Therefore, I should have (debatably) better bonuses on my items. To the forums!"

Sorry about sounding glib there, but seriously. There are ways around interrupt-heavy enemies without needing "better" items. Your opponents are interrupting you? Check out some skills that can counter that. Don't believe a 20/20 mod will help you enough to cast Reversal of Fortune.

Even though I'm reluctant to say it...I think given the general absence of greens in PvP (whether used by PvPers or RPvPers), we can say with relative certainty that players do not need the greens to be successful (go player skill and build ingenuity!), and thus, it can be said with relative certainty that introducing green item bonuses will in fact remove player skill, rather than removing supposed battlefield "inequalities."

So, that's why I think your idea is a bad one.

Instead of coming up with variations on a player's build after getting hit hard by Caster Lockdown or whatever, that player would just go to a green item. It's like a lame band-aid, basically, and I just don't think lame band-aids should be encouraged.

theclam · Jan 20, 2006, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Giving everyone access to the same equipment removes player skill and discourages ingenuity. Right.

It's not as if no one has access to these green items. Some people do have access to them. Are you suggesting that we keep inequality solely for the purpose of making the weaker players play smarter?

It's not like I'm immune to interrupts when I've got an additional 10 or 20 percent chance of a faster cast speed. I still have to worry about interrupts and adapt to Mesmers and Rangers who use them. I just want to have the same advantage against interrupts that hardcore PvE players do.

Remove them from the PvP environment or make them available to everyone. That's all I want. I don't want any special advantages.